Democratizing Changemaking: A Framework for Transformative Discussions and Ideas with Corrina Grace

00:00:00 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
There is much to be gained on the author and publishing journey. There is the chance to accomplish a lifelong goal, perhaps to make a difference in the world and bring about a little bit of positive change through the message in your book, among other things. But there's also no sugar coating the fact that it is not necessarily an easy journey. And I'm talking about both pre publish and post publish. Still, we know you're up for it or you wouldn't be tuning in. So let's talk about expectations. Writing and publishing a book is always harder than we thought. We can't take our foot off the gas without slowing to a crawl and sometimes it feels like we're starting to roll backwards downhill. But when we have aims and dreams of changing the world for the better, even for one person, we simply must keep going. Joining me to talk about the changemakers expectations and navigating around them is Corrina Grace, author of The Weaver's Way. Corrina, welcome. And I'm going to get you to start us off by telling us just a little bit more about yourself. Of course, you're an author of The Weaver's Way, but you're also much more than that. Corrina.

00:01:23 - Corrina Grace
Yes. Thank you, Boni. And thank you for having me here on the podcast. It's so fun to be doing this with you, one of the many things that we do together.

00:01:32 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
Yes.

00:01:34 - Corrina Grace
So I identify as I guess probably the best way is that I have an engineer's brain, a social justice heart and an entrepreneurial spirit. And so I bring those three things to bear in my work, which is always very difficult to explain when I get to a cocktail party and people ask me what it is that I do, that's how I explain it.

00:02:02 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
But when I think of changemaker and changemaker is kind of a buzzword, it seems like every time I turn around, there's somebody else using the word change maker in another capacity and context. And I'm just stealing it because I think it really explains the hearts of many of the authors that we work with. Not just the ones we work with at Ingenium Books, but really, if I think of anybody that really embodies the spirit of being a changemaker, it is you. It really is you. And so before we start talking about the expectations in writing a book and the publishing journey and what's challenging about it and what the rewards are, let me get you to tell us about your book, The Weaver's. Way and what kind of change you are hoping to make in the world through the book and through the other things that you do in your work and in your life.

00:02:58 - Corrina Grace
Yeah, and so maybe what you just said, Boni, kind of encompasses it. Where is this? For me, one of the things going on 16 years ago I moved to Guatemala, which is where I am doing this podcast from. It's where I live. But when I was in my late twenties, I had always been very concerned about climate change. And I moved to Guatemala as a young person who was not wanting to start an organization I did not self identify as a changemaker. I cared deeply about climate justice and the fact that climate change was going to impact the poorest and most vulnerable communities. First I started organizing with other young people that snowballed into a movement of young people in an organization that we bootstrapped and built over the course it's still running now. I ran that for ten years and as part of that process kind of, I went into this world, as you say, kind of a change maker. And so I became labeled a change maker and I went to change making events and all these things. And what I started to realize and this is really part of the heart of writing the book, was that change making has become almost an elitist thing, and that many of the people that are worshiped as this kind of Heroprenurship journey of change making do not look like the people that they're trying to help and actually do not have the experience of the problems they're trying to solve. And so really one of the things that I care deeply about is democratizing this concept of change making, making accessible.  And I say this with full respect to the people, to ordinary everyday people like you. And I can feel empowered to take action on the things that most concern us. So the Weaver's Way was really about that and then telling alternative stories. One of the things is, again, in this world of change making we're seen to be in love with this idea of the mythology of singular achievement. And we tell this kind of hero's journey of one person who's out there creating change in the world on a massive scale. And I'm sorry, it doesn't work like that. Right? And so how do we break apart that story and say it is not about the Heropreneur and the heropreneur's journey, it's about actually how we come together. It is not a handful of leaders that are going to solve the problems we face. It is a leaderful generation. And so I am very passionate and dedicate my life to activating that leaderful generation.

00:05:24 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
And you mentioned how you're doing this on the ground in Guatemala. There's so much in here that we can unpack, but I want to switch us into that author journey and get you to tell us when you first had the idea that writing a book was going to be something that would help you in this work, and what were you thinking and what did you expect it was going to be like?

00:05:57 - Corrina Grace
Yeah, look, I will be honest and say that the book was not necessarily, obviously in the beginning a helping place. I have to say that it was as with a lot of things that I talk about, it was emerging. So the first piece of the book was when I stepped down from the leadership of the organization I built, and I had this sense that the stories we're telling are wrong. The way we're approaching this needs to change. I had a talk with a very dear friend of mine and I said, the one regret I would have as I step down from this or step away from the leadership is if these stories go untold because these are the voices that are never heard. And so she kind of flippantly, as she often does flippantly, throws me these huge curveballs and you should write a you know, at first I thought, that's kind of interesting, and I didn't jump into it. And then I was doing a master's program in social innovation for sustainable development in Italy after that. And I came up again with the stories we're telling just are not the true stories. And so that was really the catalyst when I thought, okay, there's voices that need to be included in these narratives and there's stories that I want to tell. And so that was really the final piece, I guess, that made me decide. And it's really been a commitment about getting those voices out. I think what it can do to the work I care about has been.

00:07:28 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
A secondary piece, if you will, that makes total sense. So you made the decision then. What was it like?

00:07:41 - Corrina Grace
Agony? It's not fair. I'm an engineer. I don't know that it's easy for anybody, of course, but it was that the three year old child in me definitely had a lot of tantrums about it not being fair. And at the same time, for better or for worse, it happened right when COVID happened. It seemed to be a piece of serendipity that I was gifted with. I was actually alone for two and a half years through that COVID period, just because of where I couldn't get back to Guatemala at the time. And that's a lot of space to write. So it was a really long kind of retreat, if you will, of writing and rewriting. But absolutely, it was not easy.

00:08:37 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
Yeah. And it really I often say that it's a little bit like having a baby where I just have one adult child, but I remember being pregnant and people were saying to me, oh, it's going to be this is going to be that hard, and this is you're going to do this. And I just had no concept. It didn't matter what they said. I had no concept of what the experience was going to be after the fact. I just knew I was headed on this journey. I think writing a book is the same way. People say, oh, it's going to be hard, and we don't really know what that means until we're in the middle of it and then it's hard.

00:09:21 - Corrina Grace
And I think the metaphor is actually even better. And this is probably if we talk about expectations because if we use the expectation of having a baby, I was focused on the pregnancy piece and maybe giving birth and not to the 18 years that I'm going to have to be raising this child afterwards. And that's something I know you and I have talked about a lot. That's probably the biggest shift and it was almost I think one of the things that's interesting is we don't necessarily take the time to unpack the implicit expectations. I don't know that I would have put language around this beforehand, but it has absolutely come up in the journey post of right. It's not actually, look, I wrote a book, everyone now buys it. Like actually now there's a different kind of hard work that's going to come and it's a constant push.

00:10:16 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
It is. And it's no less emotionally grueling.

00:10:27 - Corrina Grace
At least for me personally. It's the least favorite of those emotions because the second part is putting your I don't think you and I have talked about this yet, but about a month ago I just read the Immunity to Change book. And so about a month ago I went through this process; I had published this book and put it out there, but deep down inside there was a piece of me that was like, yeah, I can sell a few copies, but don't let it go too far. So there was this lack of alignment internally and when I really looked, it was questioning this very deep narrative. And it's ironic because this is what the book is about. Who am I to have a voice? Who am I to tell a story? Because I also grew up in a world where I was told to be seen and not heard. And so to kind of do that deep searching and say, actually it is important for this voice to get out. And this voice is not just me, but it's the voice of all the people I interview in the book. And since I've done that work, I've really worked on creating a shift. And it has created a shift, but it was because the self promotion piece is quite hard, right? It brought up all of this impostor syndrome stuff for me.

00:11:38 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
Yeah, absolutely.

00:11:39 - Corrina Grace
Yeah.

00:11:41 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
And I think that is something that I have heard almost unanimously from every author that I've spoken to, especially around that post published, trying to make sure that there is some degree of visibility around your book so that you can accomplish the goals that you set out to accomplish when you started this whole thing, which is that who am I to be doing this? Surely to goodness somebody's going to see through this facade, find out who I really am. I'm glad to hear you say that you're making some shifts on this because if not you, then who.

00:12:27 - Corrina Grace
Yes.

00:12:27 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
So let's talk about a little bit more about what you are experiencing now. Your book's been out almost a year. Oh, my goodness. Almost a year already? We're recording this in July of 2023. And it's a great book. I love your book. I think you did a fantastic job writing your book. There are big messages in your book for both big and small people, and I use that not I'm not talking about adults and children. I'm talking about, you know, leaders, capital L leaders who might need to think a little bit differently about how they approach change. And small L leaders empowering people on the ground about the ways that they can help to affect change. But what's it been like for you to try to use the book as a leverage point for moving the yardsticks on this really big issue?

00:13:37 - Corrina Grace
The places where I'm feeling most energy is I think one of the things that that book did that I do absolutely appreciate the writing process was it was putting ideas into order. Right. And I talk about a framework, but really the way that I use concepts of framework is like the playground, the jungle gym in a kid's playground. And the idea is we hang off and we pull on it and we lean on it, and we throw tantrums around it, whatever it is. But it at least says, here is this thing around which we can have a discussion. And so it's been interesting again, the places I've kind of tried to push where there is resonance and where there's not resonance. But I think more than anything, it's having had the opportunity to get those thoughts in order and say, okay, this is the set of ideas around which I guess my own personal theory of change, around how we create transformative change in the world. And it just allows for I don't want to say they're sound bites, but it allows for a conversation to land more easily if I maybe I only have an hour with somebody to convince them or I'm doing a workshop or I'm doing something different. But within that, there are places now where I have kind of a set of ideas, and I can always say, look and point back to that and say, here's more if you want it. I do think you have a very good point. Well, there's another level, I think, in the book, where the book has some pretty dense concepts, and I say that just because I've had people come back and tell me that. And at the same time, I also feel like you take as much as is appropriate for you at any point in time.

00:15:15 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
Yes, that's right. So I'm hearing that the book has helped you to bring the message to audiences that you might have already been planning to be in front of by organizing the concepts and giving you a structure for how to talk about ways that people can use this to change how they are approaching, affecting change. Which, if that was it, that's pretty powerful.

00:15:53 - Corrina Grace
Yeah. And then it's also taken me, actually just this morning before this podcast, I just did my first Instagram live video.

00:16:04 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
Yeah.

00:16:05 - Corrina Grace
But that was with this fantastic group called Project Good Work and they're trying to build this movement of change makers. And that was a 30 minute conversation. Again, I never would have reached that audience. And this has definitely been the shift around saying this is a way that we can reach more people and start to build a coherent message around the way that we're creating change. If I really do believe in the leaderful generation, then how am I reaching that leaderful generation?

00:16:31 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
Yeah.

00:16:31 - Corrina Grace
And so that's also been a really big piece. And you'd mentioned expectations, Boni and I were just speaking with another woman actually, yesterday, doing another podcast, the podcast Streak, this week. And we were just talking about I don't know how it is with your podcast, but one of the things with the book is you put this out into the world, but the world even if there was a pretty big place, so maybe it takes a while for that echo to come back. And so one of the, I guess, things that was surprising post publishing was that you don't have a huge feedback mechanism, so people would be like, how's it going? How are your book sales? And I was like, I don't know, I've got nothing. Right? Like, data is, as we talked about, one of the things I'm very data oriented, but data is not real time. Data has a delay anyway, so you're not getting that kind of feedback. But it's not like there's hundreds of people writing every day going, oh, my goodness, I read your book. That was amazing. I had somebody two days ago that I sent a book almost a year ago who said I just picked it up and read the first chapter right. It was amazing to get that. But there's just this really big lag. And so I think in terms of setting expectations, one of the things I struggled with was, of course, I had amazing family and friends that really wanted to know how things were going. And I was kind of like to tell you. I hope it's good. No one's, like, throwing rotten fruit at me walking down the street.

00:18:06 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
That is so true. And it's so different from standing in front of a live audience where you see their faces reacting to what you're saying almost in real time. There's applause after we really don't have that. I think one of the most successful authors I have seen tackling this very issue is the way she does it. She just says, every day I'm doing three things. It doesn't matter what the feedback is, every day I'm doing three things about keeping my book visible. And she changes what things are. But she has taken her book from zero to having sold over 1000 copies she generated by simply doing those three things and asking one of those things that she does on a regular basis is reach out to people and ask for reviews. She's driven her reviews up. She's approaching almost 100 reviews. And this is not a best selling, it's not a Wall Street Journal bestseller necessarily, but she just keeps at it. She keeps doing podcasts, she keeps doing and the feedback comes, but it absolutely comes with a huge delay and some feedback you don't get at all. We don't hear from, I would say, 99% of the people who read the books and that's kind of human nature. So what's next for you, then with this book and with your journey? Where are you going? Where are you taking your message? I'm really interested in what's coming up next for you.

00:19:51 - Corrina Grace
Yeah. So I think going back to this idea of how do we democratize the practice of change making? And this idea of change making is gaining momentum and continuing to, but to me, it's going to those folks now, and I'm actually going to a conference next week with exactly this to say it's a conference of some of the most successful business leaders in the world yeah. With great intentions about wanting to create a positive impact and then coming there and saying, look, great intentions are wonderful, but they're not enough. And we actually need to stop and examine the way that so to me, part of that message is how we do this work is as important as what we're doing. Right. So I'm looking at those spaces and how just to get into those conversations and invite enough curiosity to say, are all the voices here that should be here? Do we think about what this place is and what do these people tell us in terms of what's needed? And just try and shift the way that we're approaching this work of what I call shaping change? So there's a couple of big spaces, I guess, internationally, where these conversations are happening. I'm also very interested, and I've always been very interested in education for the next generation. And that was the origin of the work that I started doing here in Central America. And as I look at just me saying this, there's a lot of data saying the next generation of younger people are asking for something. It's not like, I want this job and then I can give to charity over here. They're saying, I want the work that I do to have meaning and impact. And so I think that there's a lot that we can teach this next generation around, living a life of meaning and purpose. And so I'm quite interested actually now in looking in that higher education setting and saying, are there these skills that we can build early on so that young people are approaching this work in a way that's just more just and equitable.

00:21:53 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
That sounds really fascinating and I know you'll keep us posted with what's happening and where you're going and that sort of thing, but I just had another thought pop into my head as you were talking about your next steps, which is, so you're an Australian, you're living in Guatemala. You talked about the master's degree that you did in Italy. I know from working with you over the last 18 months or so, however long it's been, that you travel around all over the world. I remember you were in the Dominican Republic and in the United States and up in Canada and of course, in Central America. Are you finding that certain audiences in certain locations are more receptive to your message?

00:22:44 - Corrina Grace
It's a good question. I don't think it is a geographical limit. So I think there are certain audiences that are more receptive. But I wouldn't slice that pie by geography. I always think, and this is actually one of the things, one of the messages in the book, but I'm always fascinated. So after 16 years of working to activate people, to feel empowered, to take action on the issues that most concern them, that first takeaway in the book was that there's some combination of we all like, It's not my job, right? Like, I'm concerned about this thing, but it's not my job, it's someone else's job. And somehow we all think we don't have the power, the position, the permission or the perspective. So they're like the four things: power, permission, position and perspective to shape change someone else's job. The further away from the front lines I get, and the front lines, I mean, some of the most marginalized and vulnerable communities I've ever seen, the further away. So towards the US and Canada and Australia, the stronger that becomes, the more disempowered people feel. And so partly maybe it's not that the message resonates, more or less, but it is a harder sell to convince people in the Bay Area, in California that are doing pretty well for themselves to reclaim the privilege to shape change over their future. And maybe it's in Guatemala. I can convince people pretty easily because nobody else here does it for them. Right? Government's not there. There is no illusion that anyone else is going to do more. In theory, the more privileged we are, what I find is the more disempowered we feel about our own ability to shape change. So that's been interesting.

00:24:40 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
Yeah, that's fascinating. I'm in Mexico, as you know, but I'm a Canadian. Your last comments just made me think about something that's very different here in Mexico and I wonder if this is similar to what you're talking about. But here in Mexico, very few or not as many regulations around building codes, safety law, like those kinds of things. So you can be walking down the street in the town where I live, and there's a big hole in the sidewalk and there's no barrier around it. People just know that you have to watch where you step, whereas in Canada, good heavens, there would be a lawsuit against the municipality or whatever. We'd be as big as if you can't watch where your own feet are going. I think that's kind of what you're talking about.

00:25:32 - Corrina Grace
It is, and it's partly because I absolutely love Canada and Australia. I love the countries that work with strong social safety nets and laws and all these things that keep us protected. Love it, not complaining. We do need to go back to the Wild West. However, I think that there is a false sense of security and safety that those of us who have been privileged to grow up in those places and I know you and I have talked about this. My book opens and closes with a historical, actually three one in a thousand year floods that hit my hometown in Australia in the space of two. I was I happened to be there at the time. I was right in the middle of it. And what was the kind of light bulb that went off for me is that many of us that are living in these places where we feel like we have this kind of much larger bubble of safety around us where life isn't. One of the ways I describe living in Guatemala is, you know, you're alive because you're working hard to stay. That like, things are harder, but you're there. It's raw. But there's something about that rawness that makes you engage with the world in a different way and kind of take responsibility for not falling in the hole. Right. And what the light bulb moment for me in those floods in that terrible time in Australia last year was that it is an illusion. Because when you get hit by three one and a thousand year floods, you're suddenly no better off than the guy that's out on the street at like, 04:00 A.m. Every day, walking up that huge volcano to cut wood and sell it for about a dollar every day. Right. Because you've got nothing. And that just was so this illusion of safety we have in the West, I think, is not going to service in the years ahead. And there it is put. It's not going to be a message of doom and gloom, but it is how do we open our eyes and bear witness to what is happening and still stay engaged with the world? Because that's what we need people to do.

00:27:38 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
Yeah. Fascinating. I want you to tell people where they can find you and where they can find your book. It's called the Weaver's way. Give me the lowdown.

00:27:52 - Corrina Grace
You can find me on my website. It is Corrinagrace.com Instagram. It is at the weavers way. So very easy to remember. You can find my book on Amazon and wherever else good books are sold. And if you want to connect with me professionally, I'm on LinkedIn. Brandy. Grace.

00:28:11 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
Awesome. Thank you very much. Do keep us posted. We want to hear all about your travels and your journeys and your audience and how they're engaging with you in your book. And congratulations.

00:28:23 - Corrina Grace
Thank you, Boni. It's been so nice to be on this journey with you.

00:28:27 - Boni Wagner-Stafford
Thank you.